To further the conversation, NEWSWEEK assembled a panel last week to explore the complexities. One after another, the people who actually make heavily violent movies, records and games declined to participate, just as they did when the White House called. This could be a sign that they are feeling the heat–or perhaps just avoiding it. Those who did take part in the NEWSWEEK forum include Wayne LaPierre, executive director of the NRA; Jack Valenti, president of the Motion Picture Association of America; Hillary Rosen, president of the Recording Industry Association of America; Doug Lowenstein, president of the Interactive Digital Software Association; Marshall Herskovitz, TV and movie producer and director, and Jonah Green, a 15-year-old New York high-school student. NEWSWEEK’s Jonathan Alter moderated the discussion. Excerpts:

ALTER: Youth shall be served, so I want to start with Jonah. You seem to think that there’s lot of scapegoating going on.

GREEN: Well, I have to say that America is very confused and scared. There’s no one simple answer to teen violence. It’s understandable because we’re seeking answers, but right now people are focusing too much on putting the blame somewhere. We should be focusing on solutions.

LAPIERRE: You can’t talk about easy access to guns by people we all don’t want to have guns without talking about the shameful secret that really hasn’t been reported. Which is the complete collapse of enforcement of the existing firearm laws on the books by the Department of Justice the last six years. The proof is in the statistics. Six thousand kids illegally brought guns to school the last two years. We’ve only had 13 [federal] prosecutions. And only 11 prosecutions for illegally transferring guns to juveniles.

LAPIERRE: Yes, I do. They did not prosecute Kip Kinkel out in Oregon after he was blowing up cats, threatening people. He walks into school with a gun. They do nothing to him except send him home. And he comes back to the school two days later with a gun and shoots those kids. I mean, the fact is we’re either serious about this situation or we’re not.

LAPIERRE: That’s just a sound bite.

LOWENSTEIN: Oh, absolutely. There are some very violent videogames, although they represent only a small fraction of the market. There’s a critical parental role here: It costs over $1,000 to own a computer. A hundred dollars plus to own a videogame machine. There’s a very conscious choice involved in bringing this kind of entertainment into your home. And the parent needs the tools to make an informed choice.

GREEN: Personally, I think some kids use videogames, especially the violent ones, just as some violent movies, as a vent. You know, they like to live vicariously and vent their anger through that. And Doug was right that we can’t really map out everything a kid has and how they use it and what makes them able to kill somebody.

ROSEN: Young people are so much smarter than anybody–the media or politicians or most adults, in fact–may give them credit for being. They understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and that’s why giving them concrete steps to take when they face personal conflict or when they face a gang conflict or school bullying, or those sorts of things, are much more productive means for giving them tools to be nonviolent in their lives than taking away their culture.

ROSEN: We’ve done surveys that show it doesn’t encourage young people to buy artists. People buy music that they connect with, that they like, that has a good beat, that sounds good. The label is there for parents and for retailers.

GREEN: I actually think artists like Eminem are very sarcastic. It is more playful than hard core. I find rap being a little more human than it used to be. Gangsta rap isn’t as big anymore, and now sampling is.

ROSEN: It’s true.

GREEN:GREEN:

ROSEN: Well, I agree with Jonah that it’s bad taste, but that’s the point. Marilyn Manson is an act. It’s an act that’s sort of designed to create a persona of empowering the geek. Unfortunately, Charles Manson was a real person. People don’t have to make up horrible tragedies in this world.

GREEN: Entertainment and the media were never really for getting across good, moral messages like “I love my school and my mother.” People rarely feel they need to express bland feelings like that.

ROSEN: But it is on some level, because Britney Spears sells more records than Marilyn Manson. You know there’s been a resurgence of young pop music. B*Witched and the Dixie Chicks and Britney Spears and ‘N Sync. I mean, these artists are selling a hell of a lot more records than Marilyn Manson.

ROSEN: Well, there’s no question that what used to be known as gangsta rap is definitely played out. Rap is much more light-hearted. It’s about getting money and getting women. The music has evolved.

ROSEN: Well, this might be controversial, but I’m actually one of those people who believes that young people are a lot more positive about the world today than most of the media is giving them credit for in the last couple of weeks. Surveys have shown that young people are more optimistic about their future, they’re more positive, they’re more connected to their parents than they have been in generations. And these all speak to really good, positive things.

HERSKOVITZ: I think we now have virtual reality available to people that is nihilistic, anarchic and violent. And it is possible for a person to so completely live in that virtual reality that they come to confuse it for the real world around them.

HERSKOVITZ: “Legends of the Fall” was a very violent movie. I think violence has a potentially strong part in any artistic venture. It’s not something I would ever want to talk about legislatively. I would like to talk about it in terms of individual responsibility, yes.

HERSKOVITZ: Oh, I think that’s the point. The thoughtful consumers feel it in their gut. I think the problem in this culture is that thoughtful consumers are not particularly influencing their children.

VALENTI: Well, I don’t think the movie industry can stand in loco parentis. Over 30 years ago I put in place a movie-rating system, voluntary, which gives advanced cautionary warnings to parents so that parents can make their own judgments about what movies they want their children to see.

VALENTI: Well, it’s because the definition of “gratuitous” is shrouded in subjectivity. There is no way to write down rules. I think Marshall can tell you that creative people can shoot a violent scene a hundred different ways. Sex and language are different, because there are few ways that you can couple on the screen that–there’s only a few. And language is language. It’s there or it isn’t. But violence is far more difficult to pin down. It’s like picking up mercury with a fork.

VALENTI: If a parent says he wants his 5-year-old to be with him, who is to tell this parent he can’t do it? Who is to tell him?

VALENTI: Well, that’s right.

VALENTI: Because the way our system is defined, we think there’s a dividing line.

LAPIERRE: I was talking with John Douglas, the FBI’s criminal profiler. And he said, “Wayne, never underestimate the fact that there are some people that are just evil.” And that includes young people. We go searching for solutions, and yet some people are just plain bad apples. You look around the country–the cities that are making progress across the board are really combining prevention and working with young people when you get the first warning signs. And making sure they find mentors. Making sure they’re put into programs. And they’re combining that with very, very tough enforcement of things like the gun laws.

HERSKOVITZ: I have a fear that modern society, and in particular television, may be beyond the ability of parents to really control. I think movies are different, because the kid has to go out of the house and go there. TV is a particular problem because it’s in the house.

HERSKOVITZ: I don’t believe that. I accept a lot of responsibility for the picture the media create of the world. But I don’t think there’s a conflict between that and the responsibility of parents to simply sit down and talk with their children. Most violent crime is committed by males. Young men are not being educated in the values of masculinity by their fathers.

VALENTI: There are only three places where a child learns what Marshall was talking about, values. You learn them in the church. You learn them in school. And you learn them at home. And if you don’t have these moral shields built in you by the time you’re 10 or 12 years old, forget it.

HERSKOVITZ: The answer is the people who aren’t contributing to the problem are thinking about it a lot, and the people who are contributing to the problem are not thinking about it.

VALENTI: Well, how does NEWSWEEK then condone its putting on the cover of your magazine Monica Lewinsky? What kind of a value system does that convey?

VALENTI: Oh, I don’t think it is.

LOWENSTEIN: What you’re looking for is an elimination of any problematic content.

HERSKOVITZ: Most people, especially in electronic journalism, don’t think at all about this, and their role is incredibly destructive, just like most people in the movie and television business don’t think at all about this. And their role is destructive. I think there’s a great need for shame. Most people I know and speak to are very ashamed, but unfortunately they’re not the people who make violent movies.